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Scaling bitcoin with micropayment channels

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  • ademczuk

    Fantastic, that is an interesting development. Great interviews from the conference @Rob, I can't say that I would have had the same composure given its spontinaity. It was actually quite informative and I will keep an eye on the etherum based augur prediction market.

    Now, I think Mike Hearn recently aluded to having done some research in micropayment spv nodes at around 36mins in here. He seemed concerned that users accounts would be drained by transaction fees over time. I'm not sure if this applies to Lightning Networks but it would be worth checking out.

    edit: You may be able to get some more info from rusty who has been breaking down the system, which Gavin recently tweeted.

    I just saw the slideshow Jeff made for the conference where he mentions Lightning network as well as something called 'Impulse Network' (possibly his implimentation). He explains it in a video here (skip to 9:47). A redditor who has already interviewed Jeff about it here

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  • Rob

    Yep, Jeff said Impulse was the implementation he was working on. But my understanding is he prefers The Lightning network. You should connect with this guy on twitter, who seems at least as excited about this as you are: https://twitter.com/runeksvendsen

    I haven't had the time to dig in (and I may not be technical enough) to fully grasp: 1) how it works at scale between a huge number of parties 2) if these (seeming) off-chain transactions are truly trustless like a "real" Bitcoin transaction. Do you understand those issues?

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  • ademczuk

    Thank you @Rob,

    This concept appears to still be ripe for an interview.

    Peter Todd did seem to burn Jeff a bit about Impulse but has remained confident in the Lightning Network. Most likely because he has also been working on CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY and agrees that malleability needs to be fixed.

    To me it seems that each Lightning Network operates in a similar manner to proof of stake. Those who begin the chains are incentivized by transaction fees to keep honest and return to the blockchain within the time allocated, while at least remaining partially online (unsure of this). My understanding is very limited and non-technical. In looking at the attention it has received from those involved in core development and casually in /r/bitcoin I don't appear to be the only one that is hungry for more information.

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  • ademczuk

    Well it appears that Mike Hearn has been at least thinking about how to address micro payment channels in his hourglass project.

    This, along with the lightning network may still need to wait for BIP 62 to address transaction malleability. Until then I guess this interview would be moot.

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  • ademczuk

    If you haven't already seen it, Mike Hearn has released a blog detailing why we shouldn't solely depend on the lightning network.

    I have been highlighting that there is a gap in knowledge surrounding scaling bitcoin and micro-payment channels in the LTBcoin podcasts that perhaps an established interviewer may want to take on? What do you think @rob , @adam or @epicenterbitcoin ? Perhaps with Strawpay so they get some visibility, or if you're feeling game a debate on scaling involving Mike Hearn, Peter Todd, Gavin Andresen and Gregory Maxwell.

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  • adam

    @ademczuk If you haven't already seen it, Mike Hearn has released a blog detailing why we shouldn't solely depend on the lightning network.

    I have been highlighting that there is a gap in knowledge surrounding scaling bitcoin and micro-payment channels in the LTBcoin podcasts that perhaps an established interviewer may want to take on? What do you think @rob , @adam or @epicenterbitcoin ? Perhaps with Strawpay so they get some visibility, or if you're feeling game a debate on scaling involving Mike Hearn, Peter Todd, Gavin Andresen and Gregory Maxwell.

    Assume we were going to devote two consecutive episodes to this topic, who would you want on and in what configuration? Who should we interview alone and who should be involved in a group conversation?

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  • ademczuk

    Thank you for the response @adam, I have only just read the email notification from your post 6 days ago. Nevertheless, it has given the topic time to cool and resolve peoples sentiment.

    EPISODE 1 [@Stephanie, @Andreas and @Adam] Interview either:

    • Wladimir J. van der Laan regarding the impact of increasing the block size to 20mg or reducing the block time to 1min may have on Block orphan rate or to UTXO (unspent output transactions) and how he perceives bitcoin is to evolve as a decentralized value exchange platform.

    • Pieter Wuille who is working on BIP 62 to address transaction malleability, which will be required for any micopayment channel to function.

    • Nick Szabo. Comedy option. Obviously you can't get him but he has expressed that the debate on blocksize/blocktime needs to be settled so people can move on.

    EPISODE 2 [@Adam]

    A Lincoln-Douglas style Debate. (below is only a suggestion for the topic)

    • A fork is required within a year if bitcoin is to sustain its current growth

    For:

    • Gavin Andresen

    • Mike Hearn

    • Pieter Wuille

    Against: (whoever you can get from the following)

    • Peter Todd

    • Gregory Maxwell

    • Adam Back

    • Jeff Garzik

    • Gavin Andresen UTXO

    There is a lot of content to cover. In between either of the two episodes I would recommend that the discussion be broadened to use the strengths of the other pod-casters on the network.

    @epicenterbitcoin would be ideally placed to interview the counterpoint to a 20mg blocksize increase in a hardfork by interviewing Matt Corallo, who has helped to consolidate the developers on the issues at hand.

    @rob has already reached out the team behind the lightning network (Joseph Poon and Thaddus Dryja) and could perhaps explore an interview to discuss their progress and plans for implementation.

    @john knows how to dig deep into peer-to-peer solutions so he could find out more about micropayment channel solutions by interviewing CEO Martin Zachrison / CFO Olle Kullberg of Strawpay.

    @johnbarrett would be able to shed some light on other commercial interests in hub and spoke micropayment channels by interviewing Tony Gallippi and his plan to address scalability.

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  • ademczuk

    Thanks @adam I'm watching @epicenterbitcoin interview with the lightning network team live.

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  • adam

    @ademczuk Thanks @adam I'm watching @epicenterbitcoin interview with the lightning network team live.

    Great, I think they also have Mike Hearn scheduled.

    We recorded today with first the hosts + Gavin talking about block size then had hosts + gavin + peter todd to talk about his concerns (we never even made it to the 21 company)

    Should be out a week from Saturday

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  • ademczuk

    I am ecstatic @Adam, as it happens to have coincided with my birthday. Thankyou for bringing it all together. The @epicenterbitcoin interview has begun to be contraversial as the lightning network team requires a larger blocksize to function while agreeing with Peter Todd that its a slippery slope.

    ps.Brian needs to turn off autofocus

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